Barbara Ramusack

BR: Well, I only actually had one on campus interview, which was Cincinnati. And it was very informal, like, no one met me at the airport, they said, you know, ‘take a taxi.’ And so I took a taxi and, and spent the first night by myself. And then someone was supposed to pick me up for breakfast, and I was to leave this that same day of the interview. So I was all prepared and everything but didn’t have breakfast. And the person didn’t show up. And so then my first interview was with the dean. And his first question was, what did I think of the retirement policy? And I had not looked at the retirement policy. And I said, ‘Oh, I think that it is–It sounds very good.’ And so the questions it was–he was a–I think, a biologist, and it was just evident that he really didn’t know too much about India, China or Japan. And so it was sort of a–it was not a–you know, a smooth introduction. Then I was taken around to visit with various history professors, and a political science professor who taught about India. And, for example, I tried to go to the restroom, and restroom doors for the faculty, women–there were separate restrooms, faculty, women–were locked. And so finally, I got back to the history office. And I went in and asked the secretary, I said, ‘I don’t know where I can get into a bathroom. And can I go into a student bathroom?’ She said, ‘You mean those men didn’t give you a key?’ And I said, ‘No, they didn’t.’ So she took care of me. So that–it was obvious that they were doing an interview with, you know, a species that they hadn’t done before. I knew that they had interviewed for the job that previous year, and people had rejected it, because they were all men, and they didn’t want to teach. The Chinese trained people didn’t want to teach India and vice versa for the India. So it was my first job interview. And so they said you can do it? And I said, ‘Well, yes, I had a field in Chinese history. I had Indian history. And I had, I didn’t tell them this, I said had a course in Japan history and ahead half of a course in Japan history [JS laugh]. So that’s how the hiring process and then they took me to lunch. And they kept asking me questions. And I can remember it was a African American woman who was a waitress said, ‘Now you men be quiet and talk among yourselves. She’s got to eat. This is a difficult pie for her.’ So that it was nice to find another woman on campus.

JS: Right.

BR: So then the other thing is, which–would–I don’t think anyone realized, the head of the department offered me the position before I went to talk to the faculty, because traditionally, when you’re being interviewed, your last interview is with the faculty sort of off the record, and they will, or supposedly to vote, I thought, and maybe they did vote, but it was–I had an initial offer. And the only–I didn’t bargain about salary. I didn’t know you were supposed to do that. And the only thing I bargained about is they wanted me to teach a year long upper division course on India. They wanted me to teach a course on South Asia, which would be Indian Pakistan and Sri Lanka, that and then they wanted me to also do a Western Civ. And to do China, Japan–well, they wanted an Asian history course, which would have one quarter and the one quarter China, one quarter Japan. But at the same time, they wanted me to do the course on world history that started with ancient Egypt and came up to–and I said, ‘I could do this, but could we do two years of, or I mean, two courses of Asian history survey my first year, and then the next year that I would do the world history.’ And so they said yes, the the department had called me back the next morning and said yes. And so instead of 8500, he told me I would get 9000 so that’s where I knew I would get $9,000. So I have my PhD from the University of Michigan and I had just returned from being 18 months in India and five months in–about four months in England doing research. So I’ve been outside the United States and As probably most people remember, that was a very, very taught time in political things because mainly of the situation in Vietnam,

JS: Right.

BR: And so in Ann Arbor, which where I was doing my work, and I returned, I mean, it was a very, you know, a–I guess you would say, a bowl of protest against the government’s policy in Vietnam. And I was involved in some of those things. And so when I came to Cincinnati, I became active in the Democratic Party, at the very lowest level, at the precinct going around campaigning for Eugene McCarthy. And I had doors slammed in my face. And I had, and I was just going to Democrats, because they gave me a list of where the democrats were engraved in my precinct. And what was my precinct is now two precincts. They–and I would go around, and the democrats were in for Jackson. And I didn’t meet one person who was for Eugene McCarthy. But in the history department, there were people who were supporting Eugene McCarthy and I became quite good friends with them. Zane Miller, who was our urban historian, and the two Shapiro’s, we had Herbert Shapiro and Henry Shapiro, and they were both very staunch. So I was signing up getting people to sign my petition to be a precinct executive. So there was a lot of debate on campus about the Vietnam War.

JS: Yeah.

BR: and the our involvement in it. And the thing is, what I was amazed at, and I won’t mention any names is that there were history people who were very strongly supporting the war, and there were people who were not supporting the war. And there was one time we had a dinner at a restaurant, the Wigwam, and afterwards, there, the men were shouting at each other, and I thought, possibly going to fight each other, but people took them apart. So that within the history department, there were people who supported the president, and there were people that supported McCarthy, so that it was, you know, you were politically involved. But at the same time, I tried to be very, you know, let’s say, legal and that be too loud. Because I was a woman. And at that time, when I your I came in the College of Arts and Science, there were only 14 women who were tenure track women. There was one Margaret Fulford who was in Botany, there was a woman who taught German literature, [unknown name] and then there was a woman teaching the Romance Languages, but she was a specialist on Spain. So that was in Arts and Science. And then the rest of us were all first year arts–first year assistant professors, and mainly in the humanities, I don’t think there was, I know, there wasn’t anybody in science. So there were only 14 women in all of Arts and Science. And I think that, you know, maybe there were 150 faculty 100, because at that time, UC was still a state, a city school. And so there was the Vietnam War. And there will be other things that I’ll say about that. But I think it’s important to remember that Cincinnati was a city school, it was a very old city school compared to the other city schools, like in Toledo and Akron and place, places like that. So–but those started to go state because they didn’t they couldn’t survive on the taxes from the city. But people in Cincinnati said, we went them to buy our campus, we don’t want to just give all that land away. And so there was a strong backlash against going state. But we at that time, we’re getting some subsidies from the state. So we did eventually go state, but it was later than the others. And it was really about the early 1970s. And then, I–there–we’d been hiring a lot of people. We had 31 people in the history department tenure track when I came, but part of it was our classes, were bursting at the seams, because during the Vietnam War, you could get–you could delay being on the draft list by coming to UC, and so our classes were filled with a lot of young men, we had young women too, but it was that’s why we could support 31. But then the I don’t know whether you want to say recession, but of the 1970s things got really bad. And so people started–and the war sort of was winding down, so it was very difficult because if somebody left or didn’t get tenure on the faculty, that the history department started to become much smaller. And then if I think it was maybe by 1972 to 1976-77, we didn’t hire anyone. So that you, you had–your classes were still large, but there were fewer of them. And so that was one thing that was happening. And then there were other things that had tremendous impact on the university. And first of all, was the one fourth, the fifth of April 1968, with the death of Martin Luther King.

JS: Right.

BR: And that af–that evening, I was on my way to a democratic preci–district thing for the–you know, the local people, and it was over in western hills. And I came and we went into the auditorium there, the room where we were meeting, and we were told to Dr. King was dead.

JS: How did you feel?

BR: I felt I was just appalled. How could this have been in the United States that, you know, someone’s going to be shut down like that? And so they said, ‘we’re dissolving the meeting, go home.’ Well, I needed gas. So I stopped it. There were several there were more than one gas station on Clifton hills, not Clifton hills on Parkway, on Central Parkway. So I stopped for gas. And the man said, ‘What are you doing out here? You should be at home, it’s going to explode.’ And I said, ‘I’m on my way home, but I need gas to get home. So that’s why I’m here.’ And so I went home. And I mean, it was, you know, just unbelievable. The protests against what would–what had happened when we didn’t know what was happening. And then also that–and I can’t remember for sure. Well, I remember that–then, the next day, I remember, there was a curfew in Cincinnati, so that they were trying to keep it under control.

JS: So a lot of like rioting or something or?

BR: There. There was a there was a certain amount of variety, it was it would be a little bit worse. I mean, there was rioting, and I was trying to check whether someone died because I know someone died. They were going down–it was it was over east of the university. And they were somebody from the university were shot. And I can’t remember whether it was after the death of Martin Luther King or after the Kent State killings.

JS: Yeah.

BR: And so I mean, people were dying, and, you know, faculty in, you know, they were just–I–the person who was killed in, its the area next–it was going over towards where now 71 is, and they were going down the hill there. And it was just, you know, you were afraid. And people said, Well, why are you doing this? You can’t do this. But, you know, I was driving. And that really created, you know, a lot of I think, you know, protest marches. And I remember Dabney Glen Park, who was hired the same year I was, and but later left a university, that, you know, he was participating in the protest. So that really, you know, was something that I never thought would happen in the United States, but it did. And I was, you know, involved, but I wasn’t involved in a very public way on that time. Because I mean, teaching three courses, when we had no T–and I had no TA. The people in American US history or European they had ta is to help with grading. And you you had 70 people in your class, and I had two classes of that. SoI was, you know, really keeping my nose to the grindstone there. And then the other–the next thing, which I just couldn’t get over, were the killings at Kent State. And that was on the fourth of May 1970. And I was actually in Ann Arbor because I was, I was giving my midterm exams, and so I have someone to that. And I had gone up to Ann Arbor to talk with my dissertation, because I was just finishing up well, I just finished up my dissertation and defended it. So that I was up in Ann Arbor and I didn’t know about it until we were at dinner celebrating that I was finished. And the waiter came up and said, there have been these killings at Kent State. And I remember that people said it’s going to explode if–the campuses are just going to explode. So I came back to Cincinnati, and I forget whether it was on it must, might have been Saturday or something. And there were riots in the city. And the police had–and there were protests on campus. And the people asked the police for greater protection. And the police said they couldn’t, you had to get the National Guard. Well the National guard had just killed students on a campus of in Kent State. So I mean, that was not the answer. So that also just opened up much more protests. And so I mean, you had to be very careful if you were going around. And you know, you wondered what in the heck is happening to your country, that you’re killing people on a campus who have no arms with, you know, not threatening anyone who were protesting. And the–as I say, that was something that sort of seared you for life on that, and, you know, made you more active. Well, and then the university was attempting to deal with what had happened. And at first classes were canceled. And I remember one thing that we had, there was a Korean woman in the history department who was working for her PhD. And we were not supposed to go to campus. And she was due to have her oral exams, her so called prelims. And we weren’t supposed to go on campus. But we thought we had to wait. Well, we’re not supposed to be teaching. And we were told we weren’t supposed to be teaching. We weren’t supposed to be teaching. And so what could we do for this woman? She had to go back. And if she didn’t have her exams, we couldn’t say that she had entered candidacy? And so we have them in one of the–across the street, in one of the religious groups that you know, we’re student oriented.

JS: Yeah.

BR: And I can’t remember what was the Presbyterians or what I know, it wasn’t the Jewish one or the Catholic one, but it was, it was one of them. And so you know, you’re feeling like, ‘Am I am I going against the ru–the law?’ Because, you know, we were supposed to be, you know, on countdown or something, you know, that we weren’t supposed to go near the university. And, you know, we–so we did it. And you know, she was a candidate, unfortunately, she–she went back, she didn’t have time to work on her dissertation. So she never got to be, you know, get the PhD. But we did feel good that she could take this back and, you know, but it, it was very, very difficult. And so there were all of these meetings, on campus, there were–a meet up–then finally, we got to meet on campus, and we were having meetings and everything. So then that was when a University Senate was established. And it was to have administrators, faculty, and students to bring people together into, you know, trying to cross those categories. And it was to include those groups. And the first three chairs of it were history professors.

JS: Really.

BR: The first one was Jean Lewis.

JS: Aw [Laughs]

BR: and the second one was Zane Miller. And the but they were professors. I was an assistant professor, I was a woman. And so they made Zane said, ‘Oh, well, you have to be Chair of the University Senate.’ And I said, ‘Oh, I’m not prepared for this.’ He said, ‘Oh, no, you can do it, don’t worry.’ And so I became the chair of–but by that time, things are starting to settle down.

JS: Yeah.

BR: And so we did have, you know, a lot of discussions and I think, what was something that I never anticipated, when they I was in my office, which was–or I was asked to go to an office of the head of Student Affairs. And I met with a group of males, students, and mainly they were from CCM. And they were concerned about having the discrimination that they felt which was against gay men. And so they said, Well, what we, or what the person in said, you know, maybe we could who–was in student affairs, said, you know, ‘can’t you do something on the University Senate?’ And I said, ‘Well, you know, I don’t know, we have some faculty that I’m not sure, you know, they seem to be somewhat conservative, where they would be on this.’ So I said, ‘but I’ll try it.’ And so it was, I think, I can’t remember is either the next to the last meeting or the last meeting, and I was really scared. I was really scared. And I thought ‘what in the heck is going to happen here?’ So we, you know, we did other business and then we had this discussion about this resolution for non discrimination including sexual orientation. And it passed.

JS: Oh, it’s amazing.

BR: I was amazed because it was hard. You know, I didn’t feel that I could do talking. I know that I could talk or I could advocate which way I was definitely forward. But I thought I didn’t want, you know, people that say that I was trying to coerce them. And even if I just was talking to them, they might come back and say, ‘Oh, you know, she was trying to coerce us.’ And so we did have it. And I think it’s important to know that we had it on campus. And when we had interviewed people in the history department, I always made sure that they knew. And there was one person, I’m not going to name who was gay at that time, and said that they thought, you know, it was, you know, they didn’t say at that time, I didn’t know that, you know, that person was gay. And so they, but later found out and said, that was something why they want it. The other thing, which I think is interesting, you know, in the city, they had passed a resolution, no discrimination against gays, and then it had been rescinded.

JS: Really?

BR: Yeah. And I was trying to think I couldn’t find the date it was rescinded, it was defeated, that we have this in our city charter. And I thought, you know, we way back when we had it in the university. And I mean, there wasn’t any–there was publicity, it was the only time I got my name in the newspaper, that we had passed it. And I didn’t know if I could send that home to my parents [Both laugh]. So I didn’t, and the thing is that, you know–so that there were things at the university that were happening that were positive, too, and that the university was ahead of the city. And at the same time, what you have to realize is that it was a transition. And also, that was a time in the 1970s, when the AAUP, got to be much more–have much more power. And, you know, involved in not just be sort of, you know, talking about what we should do, but doing it.

JS: Yeah, were you involved in that?

BR: No, I was for a little while. And then I thought, I have to–I was supportive of it. But the thing, I didn’t do a lot of overt work for it, because I just thought I had too much and tried to get tenure, I’m doing this, I’m doing that. And it was–and also I was active in a lot of Asian or south, particularly South Asia, which is India, Pakistan, Nepal, Sri Lanka, that sort of area, in the events off campus, because there was no one I could really talk to. And so I felt that I needed that. And so I got involved with that. And I was in the head of the research committee on the Punjab, and I was, I got involved in all of the middle–I forget what it’s called. But it was like the Asian Studies of the mid, Midwest, Midwest Asian Studies. And so I was involved in things that related to my research and my teaching. Because while all of this is going on, I finished my dissertation in, and defended it. I finished it earlier, but defended it in 1969. And so then there’s the pressure to start publishing articles and things like that. So with the AAUP, it wasn’t that I wasn’t in favor of it. And initially, I did a couple of things with it, but then I didn’t because I thought I have, you know, I’m spreading myself too thin. And anyway. So and I mean teaching, and then after the first year, because my classes were filled when I was doing two have Asian, then I was doing to have Asian history. And that was a lot because I had no TA and then also within the department, I had gotten f–I started on a one year contract, and the next year, I was only renewed for a year. And so I went to the department head and said, you know, ‘I thought I would get a two year renewal after.’ And he said, ‘Well.’ I said, you know, ‘what are the guidelines? What do I have–what do I do that I could get it?’ And he said, ‘Well, we really don’t have any guidelines.’ I said, ‘Oh,’ that was Professor William Eschbacher, Bill Eschbacher, and he was new. And so then he he appointed a committee to formulate what should be the criteria for promotion at various levels. And he named me chair.

JS: Oh my gosh.

BR: Yeah, if you talk up, they’re going to say, well, you can do it.

JS: Yeah.

BR: And he–but he was very astute because you know, the ones who have the most to win or lose with that are the assistant professors who don’t have tenure. So he put two of–he put another professor on. I think it was John Alexander. And then there were two faculty and George Ingrid, I think maybe the, I forget the other one. But anyway, so there were four faculty, one full professor, one associate and two assistant. And I was chair [JS laughs]. So we we did, you know, give guidelines about what we thought you–were appropriate for you to do. And you know, it was an iron clad in any way, you know, you could probably make an argument one way or the other. But at least we finally had something that you had to do. And so actually, when I came up for promotion, to associate. Well, I came up a year early for promotion to associate professor, because I had published an article in our major journal, Journal of Asian Studies. And I guess my students were revolting. I mean, my, my, my, I think my Asian–I know, my agency, of course, was very difficult for students. I mean, I tried to make it, you know, easier for them. But every once in a while, and not so much now, because I’m so old, but I would be in brueggers, and people would come up and say, ‘you know, Professor Ramusack, your course was really hard.’ [JS laughs] I said, ‘Well, I know, it was unfamiliar material.’ He said, ‘but you know, I learned something.’ And I said, ‘Oh, good. I’m glad to hear that.’ And I think it’d be helpful if you want to go to India and traveled or anything.

JS: Yeah.

BR: But so I know that my, you know, that my–I was doing something that they had never heard of, like, if you’re doing I mean–and John Alexander was a fabulous teacher. And so, you know, everybody wanted to take American history from John. And I–but you know, I, I was in a different–whole different, you know, a different personality too. So–but I knew that, you know–and like, even during the Afghan war, I had a student and he said, ‘You know, I really wish I had this course, before I went to Afghanistan,’ he said, ‘I would have a better idea of what was happening there.’ So, you know, I was hired, I think as a woman because I was doing something that was, you know, they didn’t know what, what to do about it. But so I did spend a lot of time, you know, in other groups, like the Midwest conference. I went every year, associate–Association for Asian Studies, a lot of times to the history. And so in my career, I ended up actually, I think I’m the only person from the department who has gotten–who was a faculty member in my time, which starts from 1967, who was elected to the overall Council of the American Historical Association.

JS: Really, How’d you do that?

BR: I got elected people ask me, I mean, if people ask me, ‘well, how did you get elected, you’re not from a big university.’ And I said, ‘I guess people voted for me.’ [JS laughs] Yeah, that’s all you can say. And, and I was very active in them in the American Historical Association, because the woman who went off to be the first woman, president of Harvard, had started a group to talk about how to improve conditions for part time, and then tenure track people. Because like, there were stories, like some places, they didn’t even have Xerox privileges, they didn’t have an office, they didn’t have a place to put their coat. And, you know, they had very, very low pay, and, you know, nothing that would make it a little easier for them. So there were ten associations like political science and economics and things like that. It’s economics, political science, and a lot of, you know, literature and things. And so we met for over two years. And it’s interesting, all but one of the sort of heads who were running the operation, plus me and two–one, I think one or two faculty, we were all women.

JS: Really?

BR: Because we because it was mainly women, who were working part time and, you know, getting paid, you know, $2500 for, you know, teaching the course, and expected to do all of this grading and everything. And so, we, you know, drew up guidelines that were printed within the–and the, you know, the monthly thing of the American Historical Association, and I was on various other committees form in terms of book prizes, and, you know, things like that. But that that was before I was on the council itself, and was doing that. And so the same thing in the Association for Asian Studies I was elected in the South Asia group. And then I got enough votes so that I was on the, the top Council. So there was one Chinese specialist, one Japanese one, Southeast Asia ones. In South Asia, what was the last one I forget now, but anyway, Southeast Asia, South Asia, China, Japan, and then you know, and so anyway, you know, it was very awkward at times, because these were very senior men. And also for them, you know, South Asia was, you know, or Asia, it was just, you know, South Asia, that wasn’t important.

JS: Right.

BR: So that, or Asia wasn’t important, because I on this on the historian thing, I was the Asianist. On the, the one for South Asia, the Association of Asian Studies, I was South Asia. So that was two things. And so I saw how those things operated, and was, you know, most probably involved with–but I was involved in other things than the women’s issues. So that–and that takes a lot of time away from your research. And, you know, if you’re teaching a heavy load, that takes a lot, but then we eventually got to the to two, so that two-two-two. So that was easier.

JS: What’s two-two-two?

BR: I mean, to two classes each semester, I mean, each quarter, um, you know, because when I came in, we taught three classes each semester, then we got to two, so and theoretically, in a research university, and Cincinnati was trying to say, Yes, we are a research university, then you get a lighter teaching load,

JS: Right.

BR: Because you’re going to conferences, and, you know, doing a lot of research and see, I had to go to India to to my research.

JS: Oh my goodness.

BR: And I did, I did a lot of research in London, too. But most of it, hardcore research was in India, and that, you know, getting visas it getting all of your shots, and you know, whatever inoculations that you need, and everything. So that it’s, you know, it’s a challenge, and it’s time consuming. So that–but you know, I’m glad I did it. And, you know, I really learned a lot and, you know, met many people there and have friends, you know, and then also see, I attracted. I was away, I was in India, and there were, there was an Indian woman who applied to here, to come to UC, and that was in the 80s. And she–they–they said, ‘Oh, you have someone who wants to come here, but we’re not getting her transcript.’ Well, I came back from India, and I guess I was in London or something. And I came home for some reason. And so they said, you know, ‘we’ve got this one from India, but it’s not the one, you know, this Paula Bannerjee. And I said, Well, this is Paula Bannerjee. But the University of Calcutta uses the Bengali spelling of her name. So it was Paula Chadhapadaya. [JS laughs] And so you know, there were those things. So she was my first student. And then there was a she had a friend, and that student came the next year. And see, I had to have students who came with their language because we didn’t have any language teaching in the Indian languages. And so, and then I established a reputation in India for my research because I met some of the women who were doing research. And I was doing–working at first on princely states in India. And then I was doing work on women. I–a second field that I developed was looking at efforts to improve female and infant mortality. And so I was doing women’s history. And I was doing princely state history. And I was writing–I was in an effort to do a book on South–on all of sort of the non-Western world and women. And there were five books. There was one on Middle East there was one on South, on Asia. There was one on Latin America, and I forget the other two. But there were there were five of them–Latin America. And so the thing is that I was doing a lot externally, as well as a lot you know, and a lot that focused on content and then a lot that was serviced, service and then teaching. And–but I ended up having six Indian students, women who came to study women’s history with me, and I’m proud to say they all have jobs.

JS: Awesome.

BR: And some of them are now full professors. One is at Northern Arizona, where our new Dean of Arts and Sciences is from and so that was Sanjam Ahluwalia. My first one was Paula Bannerjee. And then there was one that doesn’t communicate with me. I don’t know. And let’s see Paula, and then Houma Gunnison. And there’s one more. So the thing is, how could I forget that? Oh–anyway, I’ll think about it, and I’ll come up with it. So that, you know, I, I feel very fulfilled that UC that I’ve been able to have these graduate students who are now all teaching–on one in India and four in the United States. I know, one that I don’t hear from teaches at Shippensburg. Tintri Kupol is her name. And so then there’s the one from Arizona State. Oh, there’s one at University of Massachusetts at Amherst. So that, you know, they have been–they’re all they’re all–no, one more is going to be tenured. So the four of them are–five of them are tenured and more will be tenured.

JS: That’s great.

BR: So that that’s good.

JS: Yeah.

BR: And sort of like that. And the other thing that I really tried to–work with–and it wasn’t a conscious thing, but we were getting students, women students who have married young had their children, and wanted to come back to the university. And so I know in–I think I know in two cases. In one case, the person had applied elsewhere. And they wouldn’t take–well, when had applied to–they said that they were rejected. And so I said, You know, I looked at their things, and I said, looks–and so I took them. But then there was also when–I was twice Director of Graduate Studies. Some people are never Director of Graduate Studies, I was twice and–but I liked working with graduate students. So it was fine. But it was time consuming, because you got a course load reduction. But it took it took a lot out of you to do that. And so this woman called and said, you know, she was interested in this, and she was 39. And, you know, would I–would she be considered, and she wasn’t considered in other places. They said no to her because she was too old.

JS: Really?

BR: And I said, I will, I will personally see that you get full consideration.

JS: Yeah.

BR: And so maybe I was department head and it was–and so I followed it through. And she did get–she she got in. And she’s in, I think Kansas, she’s in the middle part. And she’s very active in all sorts of things about, you know, pipelines going through, you know, territory where they shouldn’t be going through and so that, you know, I, I feel like is Director of Graduate Studies, there were also students in department head, and I was the first woman department head. And that was–and the thing is, I never wanted to be department [Both laugh]. But, you know, your turn comes in, you know, you sort of serve and because it, you know, you can’t please all the people all the time. And, you know, you’re–the administrators tell that the dean tells the depart–you know, the, the president tells the Provost what he or she wants, the Provost tells the dean, the dean tells the department head, I have to tell the students at the bottom, I mean, the faculty at the bottom, and also sometimes the students. But the faculty at the bottom. And then they say, ‘well, we don’t want to do that. Or we think that’s not a good idea.’ And I said, ‘Well, that’s what it is [JS laughs]. So we have to work around this and try.’ So that you know, various times I’ve been in the middle of things where I didn’t want to be in the middle of things. But you know, you survive. And so you know, you just keep going and you hope that you’re having a you know, a major–or not major, but just to having some impact on people’s lives.

JS: Right.

BR: How are we doing for time?

JS: We’re good so far. Yeah, we’re good. We’re doing good.

BR: Okay, we’re doing okay.

The thing is, I think, well, another thing that I’m very proud of is that when in the 70s, when we were meeting in women’s groups, I mean, we were looking at such things as first of all the development of women’s studies. Did I–I didn’t say anything about Women’s Studies?

JS: No, you haven’t.

BR: Women’s Studies, and that was in 1974. And so we needed people to teach classes and Betsy Sato was here. She was teaching Japanese history. And then she later left that position. She went in–she was director of AAUP for many years. She got–well, she got very active in it. And it was hard to be, you know, and so both teaching and being active in AP at the level that she was, so that she didn’t go,–she didn’t stay in the academic position. And so we established in 1984, we had, you know, and we had support from the provost, who was a law professor we had provost–from the president we had, so we had support. But at, at that time, the–if–any new course had to be approved by the Faculty of Arts and Science, so then you had to make a presentation. So Betsy and I made a presentation and the–some of the faculty were not happy with, the course, they said, ‘What are you going to do, you’re not going to have enough sources, it’s, you know, this isn’t going to be like American history or European history,’ you know. It’s not. And so we said, ‘okay, no, this is going to be academic, you know,’ and then you would say, [unknown] perfect, but you know, it’s going to be academic.

JS: Yeah.

BR: It’s going to be academic. So we were doing routine teaching a course. And it was on women in India, China, and Japan. And so to make sure that it was seen as valid, we were assigning about 250 pages every week

JS: Oh wow.

BR: for them to read. And they had to do various lengths of papers, sometimes it was a longer one, sometimes it was a shorter one. And so everyone did their reading, I mean, because the students were really committed to, and I mean, it was a seminar, I think there were like, maybe 10-12 students in it, it was hard, because you were getting all these papers to read. And you too, had to read all these books and know them, you know, to lead the discussion. So one time Betsy would be in charge. And then one time I would be in charge. And–but we were both sitting in the class and everything. So that was the way in which we started, you know, Women’s Studies, other people started in other departments. And it was mainly–we had people in sociology, in English, Robin Shields was, oh, Robert Sheets was a superb teacher in English literature. And at that time, the–even the president taught a course with her because he was interested in English history.

JS: That’s good.

BR: So you know, you. But now, now, presidents don’t teach at all. And so I think that, you know, it would be good if they taught you at least one course a year.

JS: Did that used to be more common for presidents to teach?

BR: Yeah, I mean, but it was this is back in the 70s and 80s.

JS: Yeah.

BR: But you know, now, now–and I realized they have a million things to do. And, you know, maybe just once in their term, or I mean, their entire term go in and teach a course, and see what, what it is. And you know, it–I think it would be good for them. Because they did us to do that. Not, not not, not, a lot. And some I don’t think you would want to teach a course [JS laughs]. But anyway. They did teach the course. So that was how it started. Another thing that we had, that women agitated for it was in the 1970s that there were–70s or 80s. I think it was 70s. There were–in law school, there are only 7% of the students were women. Now, women, I think, almost in a majority in law school, there were only 4% in medicine. And so you know, you’ve come a long way with the availability, availability of you know, that there are more options for women nowadays. But I mean, if it’s just–like when I was at the University of Michigan to show somebody really bad, they, in 1960-61, they had eight or 900 students in the law school, which is one of the top law schools, not like Harvard or Yale, but still up there. And they had only eight, it was eight or ten women.

JS: Oh my goodness.

BR: And one of them was I we were all in a dorm and that she was in the room next door with another roommate and so I was with somebody who was in speech. But you know, it was amazing because we thought we had it bad in terms of graduate school. But you know, in the in the graduate programs, because there weren’t a lot of women going on for PhDs in history when I did. They would come for that They’re masters and go into high school teaching. And then there was one more conservative professor that I would say he thought, well, women could get a PhD because it would make them a better high school teacher. And that there was no, you know, so that’s, that’s the sort of thing that it was back in the 60s and 70s, and even into the 80s. So that, you know, it’s really changed, and you know, a lot for the good.

JS: Was the pay between men and women different? When you talk?

BR: Yes, because what happened to me, you know, I got my $9,000.

JS: Yeah.

BR: And then I got my raise. And I, as I say, I went up–I got promoted in my sixth year instead of my seventh year. So I went up in my fifth year, and I got my raise. And then the next year, at that time, they would put it in your mailbox. And so I was–I remember there used to be a meat market, very, very good on Ludlow, right next–well where the, all of the sort of the tea room was a very big bit of variety of things. But you know, on the–you have the clothing store, and then you have sort of like, I think they have alcoholic drinks or coffee shop there. And they’ve sort of cleaned it up. But anyway, there used to be a meat market there. And so I went in, I’m standing in the meat market, and I’m hoping you lamb blow up and I’m thinking, Oh, I’m probably gonna get, you know, $200 is my raise. And I got 1500.

JS: Oh, wow.

BR: And so I took it the next day, to Dr. Eschvacher and I said ‘Dr. Eschvacher, they’ve made a mistake here.’ And he said, ‘Barbara, you were underpaid? I didn’t have any–I didn’t have–I couldn’t do anything about it. But the Provost did something about it.’ So that I mean, you know, so I know, I was being paid less than men when I started. And when, you know, I was, so then it, you know, it just keeps you down. So that there wasn’t thing. But I think that from what I know, you know, salaries are now published. And–but I don’t, you know, go in and look and see what they are. But I think that women are probably, you know, doing better than we did before. But that was something you know–and so you had to have someone who felt that they could do that from their budget. Um, let’s see, what else did I want to talk about? Well, I think that–and–well, there were other things that, you know, happened to me. And I don’t know if they’re relevant, you can say, ‘we don’t really have to talk about that.’ For example, in terms of getting an international reputation. It was Christmas Eve, and I happened to be here, and I got this call. And it’s from the curator at the South Asia, at the Victoria and Albert Museum. And he said, ‘we would like you to be the keynote speaker, we’re having a exhibit on Maharajahs. And you’ve done a book on the Maharajah and you–‘ and I, it was also my first book was on what was happening to the Indian princes who were a client of the British, when the balance of power is going from the British to the Indian nationalist, because what’s going to happen to these princes, so I did it from about 19,–anything about 1910 to about 1935. Because at that time, at the British archives, the British–the British archives, they were closed for 50 years. And in India, they were only closed for 30 years. So that you know, I couldn’t go past 37 because I couldn’t get into the archives in Britain. So that was that. So anyway, I worked on princely states and what was happening to them at that time. And then I got–I was asked to do the volume in the new Cambridge history of India on the princely states. So Cambridge is a big name. And this was a project before what they would have, they would have essays in a book, but then just essays on princely states or whatever. And so then I was doing that book. So that was what got me the invitation to go. And it was about 2008. And I will never forget it because I got to go to the–well first of all, I got to go into various parts all over the V and A and talk to a lot of the curators and learned a lot from them. And then I got to go to the op, the you know, the private opening. Not the one were some member of royalty was at the table. This was the more vast one.

JS: Yeah.

BR: And you know, I never thought I would be in–the British love champagne. They just circulate [JS laughs] the champagne you want to drink and everything. And so I was very, I knew very well or it became great friends with a curator. So there was an after party going to be across the street in South Kensington. And so I went to her, and I said, ‘you want to walk over there together?’ And I said, ‘you know where the room is where it’s going to be.’ And it was in the basement thing and everything. And so she said, ‘Well, I have to give back my diamonds first.’ And I thought she was wearing rhinestones [Both laugh]. Because I know curators don’t make a lot of money. But Van Kleef and Arpel was one of the sponsors of it. So she got to wear diamonds.

JS: Oh my goodness.

BR: But there was a man following her to make sure that no one–nothing happened to those diamonds. And I didn’t–you know, he was just looking like, you know, he was someone looking at the art but–or not, he wasn’t looking at the art, he’s just circulating. So he was looking at. And so I did there. And then I was the keynote speaker at the symposium. And that was about three weeks later. And you know, I never thought in my whole life that I would be introduced as the primary authority on the princely state

JS: Oh wow.

BR: in Britain, because now the British are very proud of their tradition and their graduates. So you know, and I came from the University of Michigan, I wasn’t from Harvard or Yale, you know. And, but I think I did very well at Michigan, because I think Harvard or Yale was not ready for women. I know, they weren’t ready for women when I went in the 60s. So I mean, that was one thing that, you know, I’ll never forget. And, and people still know it, like I just went to a workshop is at the University of Leicester. And it was on the princely states. And so I was the oldest person there. And but there was one young woman, and she said, ‘and I read Barbara’s book, and she really talks about how this one princely state Bhagnagar, got the right to have the port from the British.’ And I thought, ‘Oh, I had even forgotten that.’ [JS laughs] And so you, you know, so it’s nice to know that, you know, your work has some longevity.

JS: Yeah.

BR: And, so you know, it, but I haven’t done as much publication as some people because I was more active in, you know, organizations. And even like, you know, the research committee on Punjab, and then women’s organizations too. And I really, you know, helped when we were setting up the Women’s Studies program. And now it, you know, it’s taken off, and it’s its own department, it’s a task department. And then I was head of Taft, which, you know, gave money. And that was always a very interesting experience, because, you know, working–we had this money to spend, but then I had to go and we reported to the Taft trustees. It’s an arrangement that the university would tap again, in that we get the–we get the pro, the Taft trustees give us money, but they still control the stock or whatever, you know, is throwing off this money versus, you know, producing the the dividends, dividends, and that, you know, keep it going.

JS: How do you feel about TAF paying for a lot of the anus courses, rather than the A&S, like college itself?

BR: Well, the thing is, you know, I don’t really know the inside story. And so it’s hard for me to know what to do. I mean, the thing is that I had no idea now, you know, I used to know what I mean, we used to get about 42. And the thing is, I don’t know about, you know, how much Taft is getting. And I and I just heard little bits about the courses. So how is it done? Do they pay? And because I mean, it’s a very complex thing, if you’re going to give money to the Cores.

JS: Yeah.

BR: And then also, you know, I know that they had more money to give than I did. Well, and see, that was another thing. Taft has existed since the 1940s. There was some problem because I think the deed was, you know, signed in about like 1929. But then it got involved with–it was very complex, and so that there wasn’t money coming off of it until sometime in the 1940s. And so, I came here and no one told me about Taft. No one told me. And I found out later that the head of Taft, Taft, not the Taft trustees so Taft and University. You know, they would tell that it was all men. And they, they–the men knew about it and my male–you know, my–men of my age or you know, level of commitment in the department. They knew about it, but I didn’t know about it. So then at one point, the Taft trustees said they wanted to have an external evaluation. So they had an external evaluation. And they said that they wanted to open it up. And so to make it that there should be more publicity about it. So a woman who–there was a woman on the board, whose name–she was from the French department, and a member of the Taft–or somebody who was a Taft, and a male had told her about this, and you apply, and you can get money to, you know, go to do research and things like that. And none of my colleagues in history told me that, and they were on the Taft Board. One was chair of the Taft board and shall remain nameless. But anyway, so then I had been at the Humanity Center. And I got in, that’s another thing I got. There’s a National Humanities Center in Chap–well, it’s in the Research Triangle, you know, Chapel Hill, where Duke is, and then North Carolina, and that’s sort of–and this, this tri– triangle was started as an effort in North Carolina to attract industry because tobacco was going down. And so they had a lot of medical research there going on. But they also–there was a lobby, and there was a Humanities Center. So you applied nationally, and there were about 40 people each year who got and they had people from India, like there was someone that I knew from India, who was a very eminent professor of Indian painting. And it was like being in lala land, because if you wanted a book, you just gave a slip to somebody, and they got the book from one of the three libraries for you. ff you wanted your disser–if you wanted your papers typed, they asked you do you want the British system? Or do you want the American system? [JS laughs] And you know, and they’ll type the whole paper for you.

JS: Oh, my goodness.

BR: And I hadn’t had that. And so it’s someone said, it’s like, you’re, if you’re like a kid in your lollipop land. And you would walk in in the morning, and there would be all sorts of sort of snacky food, you know, muffins and bagels and things like this, and coffee, and then you had your lunch there. And there would be coffee pots. And you know, there was there wasn’t an afternoon snack, but anyway, and you had your own private office. And you know, it was just like, being in heaven, because, you know, it was so different. And it and so then when I came back there was I think 76-77 when I came back, they were Judy Meiskins was head of Taff. And so I said, you know, ‘I think that this is really a good idea, because at Chapel Hill, they have a research center on their campus. So we should have some sort of research center.’ And so we worked on that. And we wanted one where we could bring in people from the outside as well as inside. But there were all sorts of issues that I won’t go into. We don’t say problems, we say issues [JS laughs]. And so the the thing is that, that really opened up Taft. Now what happened? There were some people, including a couple of women, that would apply and they would get $2,000 a year in the summer. And they really didn’t have–and I know from the records, they really didn’t do much. So when Judy came in, and she made me head of it, she said, ‘Okay, we’re going to start having overseeing of the grants,’ you know, and will, they’ll be a committee and you’ll, do it. Okay. And so then I said, ‘Well, you know, $2,000 it, we should go up to 4000. But we should make it competitive.’

JS: Yeah.

BR: And then I said, also, we should have supplement, if you have to go and travel for your research. Because if people are sitting in Cincinnati, and doing their research, that’s fine. But their expenses are much lower than say when I go to London, or somebody goes to California, or England, or something. [Coughs} Excuse me. So with Judy, Meiskins in and she says she said okay, go be chair of the committee because you know how it works in North Carolina is okay, so then I was the next Chair of the Taft committee. And we, we were able to do a lot more to make it open. But, you know, and you know, and to raise the stipends to make them competitive. Now, some people were unhappy, and like, one woman actually followed me into the restroom during the summer [Unknown] to castigate me, Bailey, because she, she had gotten something every year. And so now she wasn’t getting it. And so I said, you know, ‘I’m sorry that, you know, you’re not getting it, but that we, you know, we have to be more competitive. And, you know, it is more expensive if you’re going to travel.’ So, but everybody got the 4000. And then if you could get 1500, which wasn’t going to pay for, you know, if you’re spending the summer in London, or in Paris, or, you know, a big metropolitan city.

JS: Yeah.

BR: So, and it started doing more, but, you know, I was there to look at my paper to see when the heck, I was there as director of Taft. Oh. I was a professor too. But the thing is that, you know, I had a five year term. And so I, you know, I really think that we put it–but then the political science professor named–when he took over, they really got, you know, a set–they, they were able to have a space, and, you know, full time staff, and Richard. Richard, what’s his last name? Anyway, in these in political science, and he, you know, was very good at really making the basis for what it could do now.

JS: Yeah.

BR: And so it was, but, you know, just getting it publicity, and establishing, you know, some rules about, you know, that may, were sensitive to the, you know, various demands, or the various requirements of faculty.

JS: Yeah.

BR: That, that took a lot. And, you know, and then some people, you know, just didn’t pay attention. And then when you didn’t pay, like one of them, called up and just was so upset with the Secretary and, and I could hear him, and he was going on and on about, you know, that he should not have to pay for his taxi where he was because he had to get to the archives, and so that we should pay for a taxi, we don’t pay for taxis, you go public transportation, or walk. And he–so then I had to call him and tell him that ‘you ,if you want to protest, you protest to me, you protest your equal, you don’t protest to a subordinate person.’ And so I mean, those are the types of things that you have. And sometimes I mean, it really turns you off of being, you know, an administrative position like that.

JS: I bet.

BR: But you know, you, but you know, you you just fear Well, those are the breaks of the game, and what am I going to do about it? You know, and just don’t think about it.

JS: So a couple more questions. One, how did you feel about the system changing from quarters to semesters?

BR: Generally, I think it’s a good idea, because you have more time, particularly when I was teaching like, you know, the survey to do Indian history, and I would say, ‘Okay, this Gupta Empire is the classical period. What’s the classical period in someone’s culture?’ And I’ve tried to get out of them what–why we call, you know, the Greek and Roman, classical periods. They didn’t have too much on that. But the thing is that I really–how did I get off on classical period? I would say, Okay, this is the classical–the Gupta is to classical. We al–we already know what one Empire looks like we’re going on, we have to spend more time on Islam and Hinduism, and you know, the moguls and this sort of thing. So that it was hard to teach it in 10 weeks, so that’s good. I think what the problem was, when it was done, it was done just as in terms of everybody is saying, ‘Okay, you’ve got to, you know, have more students butts in the seat, and you’ll get paid.’ So then you have other colleges starting to teach English or social studies, or things like that, when they’re really doing that sort of a, you know–but I would say with a more high school level history or something, and so and, so then the enrollment in the humanities declined drastically, because–and then they–but the university was letting these other places you know, get the courses that would really be–belongs best in the arts and sciences. And I think, you know, I don’t know what happened to the–because, and I was on the Council of department heads and things like that. So I used to know a lot of their problems, too.

JS:: Yeah.

BR: And so I know that they, you know, also have issues. But if I, you know, I, I went on quarter, I mean, I went on–Michigan was on semesters. And so I think, I mean, it can be done. And I don’t–and I think most places do have semesters, so, and I can see the value in it. But I think the my main concern about it happened just when the bottom was dropping out of the humanities.

JS: Right.

BR: And but but I also think that people should take some humanities courses.

JS: Yeah.

BR: You know, whether it’s history or English, or, you know, a language course, or in social sciences to I mean, and I don’t know how they’re doing. I mean, I hear that–you know, everybody has problems or issues. But you know, sociology, and anthropology and, you know, I just feel like to be a well rounded person, if you’re not going to get it here and get interested in it here, there are so many other things that are going to distract you. Or not just distract you, but take up your time. And so this is where I think, you know, it we’re really suffering for the Humanities, because if they’re not going to get it here, they’re not going to see it on the TV.

JS: Right? So what do you hope your students took away from your classes that you taught?

BR: I hope, because of what I was teaching, that it gave them insight to a culture different than their own. That, you know, the way we do things isn’t the only way to do things. I’m not saying that some of the things that go on in India are better than here. I have questions about concerns about issues. I have concerns about their prime minister. And so I you know, I really think that Arts and Science, you know, and–but look, arts and science building has never–the McMicken, which we don’t know how long that’s going to be–has never been totally revamped. Education has. But frankly, I don’t think the education college, it’s very important, but I don’t think it has the sort of I don’t know what I want to say. That, I think Arts and Science deserves a better building. Yeah. I mean, you know, because every time I go in there, and I remember, the bathrooms were terrible. When I was department Head, I took Joe Scanio in there, and I said, Listen, we have a water sitting in our sinks, that’s breading, you know, this–well, I also had to take them in, because we had one very tall woman who had a hip thing, and she needed a raised toilet seat. And I thought, ‘the jobs you get when your department is male to register, and say, okay, Joe, we need to get this fixed.’ [Both laugh} And, you know, it didn’t go he sort of fixed that. But you couldn’t get the fountains or the the five minute fix the sinks, because a friend came over from DAAP for fashion design. And she was auditing my course. And she went in my sinks, and she said, ‘I’ve been in India, I haven’t seen anything as bad as this.’ [Both laugh] And I said, ‘Well, just this is McMicken.’ So I think that, you know, I, I think that it’s great that we have these good departments and other areas that we you know, and we have, you know, Afri–African studies we have, you know, a lot of new new things, Judaic studies, Women’s studies, yes. I think that’s very good. But at the same time, you know, I just get upset [Both laugh]. So I’m arts and science. And but, you know, I know, we’re not unique in that, and I don’t know, you know, what’s going to happen.

JS: Yeah.

BR: And I think, you know, we’ve had too much turmoil at the top levels in terms of people not staying long. And so I think that’s difficult.

JS: Yeah.

BR: And I think the university, you know, somebody who’s, you know, I think they’re worth their money if they’re doing well, because it is a very time consuming job. And, you know, I was involved in enough things where I got a sense of, you know, how those people operate, or you know, how they have to operate, shall we say,

JS: Yeah.

BR: But, you know, I know that I’ll probably get feedback from this, but I’m a graduate fellow. And so I go to the meetings of the Graduate fabulous, and we have twice a year and one is when the new people come in, and then the other is to have speakers and you know, somebody one one time, whether it’s speaker from the university administration. aAd we had a dean, like a university giant I won’t mention, and he talked for an hour and never once mentioned the humanities. And then there was sort of a sort of a talk session. And I thought, ‘I have to go to the bathroom. But I’m going to say something.’ So I said, ‘you know, there was no mention of anything related to the humanities, or sort of really even the sciences in arts and science,’ because what they’re talking about is, we have to do more research, we have to, you know, it’s, we have to do things that will bring in money, not just have–and I agree, we need that we need that. I mean, so that we need to have that, you know, and I, I’m in graduate fellows, there’s a lot of people from medicine in there. And I go to a lot of things over–because I’m interested in the history of medicine, because my current research is on efforts to improve maternal and infant mortality rates. And, and maybe I said this earlier.

JS: Yeah.

BR: Yeah. And so the thing is that I, you know, I, it’s the medical school, and I think they, you know, deserve everything they’re getting, but at the same time, we should also mention that, you know, they’re getting–and they do we have now a program in medicine in the humanities. Because I think that when you’re in medicine, you know, you shouldn’t know something about the human.

JS: Right.

BR: You know, the human side of it, but you know, I want I want my surgeon to be very well trained, steady,

JS: Right.

BR: when, you know, they’re doing it, so I, you know, I don’t, but I just think that there needs to be, you know, a more attention that No, and I think, you know, if you walk in McMicken, you know, it looks like 1950s.

JS: Right.

BR: And, you know, you go into the, you know, the education, or I haven’t even been in the New Business College. So I can’t imagine what’s there. But I–so, you know, I, I think, you know–and I know, that I probably could have gotten more writing done, if I wasn’t as interested in you know, women’s issues, liberal arts, you know, do things externally. Because, you know, I really enjoy being, you know, on the Council of the American Historical Association, and, you know, you learn a lot about what’s happening. And in the, you know, the Asian Studies group, and I was active for a while in women’s studies, but it got to be too much of an overload. And so, you know, I give them a little money, not much, but a little money, and I go to some of their events, but it’s hard to keep up with everything. And so, but, you know, I’m, I, I’m, I feel very privileged that I’ve had my career, at UC, and you know, that I’ve been asked to do things that were, I think, helpful to people. And you know, that people think that they learned something, and because, I mean, I knew what I was teaching was very different than what else they were doing. So that, you know, it was going to be hard, or, you know, and it was good, let’s say, it’s going to be challenging to them. But I tried to help them. And I think that, you know, I don’t know how many, you know, never came up and said that they thought, you know, I did an interesting class, or they learned something. And like, I think I said, you know, one time this fellow had come back from being in Afghanistan, or I don’t know where exactly was, but it was towards the tail end. And, you know, I said, You know, I really wish I had this course, before I went there.

JS: Right.

BR: And so I think that like for Vietnam, to to, you know, to know what’s happening. And, you know, to know, India, because like, a lot of people now Procter and Gamble. For a long time, it was just Colgate in India, and you couldn’t get anything, you know, from Procter and Gamble. But now, when about to my last time when I was living there, 2006- 07 there things were starting to get in the market. And now when I’ve been back for sure things, you see much more Procter and Gamble and there’s Procter and Gamble there. There is Cincinnati Bell, there is all of these things. And so I think that, you know, if you’re going to whatever you’re going to do in this world, that you should know something about other parts of the world. And not that I you know, think everything is hunky dory in India.

JS: Right.

BR: They have all sorts of problems. And you know, I I’ve seen improvements and things that have to do with women. And–but at the same time, I know there’s a long way to go and there’s a lot of people. More even more than here, you know, who have not gotten the benefit of modernization or whatever you want to call it.

JS: Yeah.

BR: Or, you know, even schooling. I mean, you know, when you see, you know, if you’re in, and I don’t travel that much in villages now, but, you know, when you went to villages, and I mean that–you know, some people’s lives are not very comfortable or, you know, safe, or you know, a variety of things.

JS: It’s unfortunate.

BR: And that’s very unfortunate. And I know, it’s happening in my country, too. So don’t throw stones here.

JS: So is there anything about–anything more about UC, you’d like to talk about,

BR: um, I think that you can get a really good education at You see, and I think some people think it’s, well, you know, I didn’t get into OSU, or this place or that place. But I think that, you know, there’s so much good has happened, that if you’re willing to, you know, it, okay, so you get one class that isn’t going anywhere, if you can drop it, but if you can’t, then just, you know, talk, ask people around, or, you know, go and talk to the professor. Now, the thing is that I don’t see professors around that much. And I don’t know whether they do a lot on email or anything. But I always I like interaction with people.

JS: Yeah.

BR: So I would be, you know, there would be days, I would want to have a day at home, you know, to prepare for things, or a half day to prepare for things. But I–in this department did I was in the office and much more than some others were. And, you know, so I know that there are things that I could have, you know, I probably could have gotten more published. But, you know, I didn’t, I didn’t necessarily go into be a publishing star. And for me, writing is very difficult, I do a lot of drafts. And so it isn’t that, you know, there are some people who, you know, are much more able to do that than I. And some people I think, who necessarily don’t give all their teaching too. And I did try to do that. But I think it was difficult sometimes for students, because, you know, they, you just didn’t know about now, you know, much more about India, because you can see them around town, you can see them in, you know, running for president of the–of Indian background, Indian heritage, running for, you know, political office. And so I think, you know, I find it very interesting to, you know, see how that has played out over the years. And, you know, because you didn’t know, and I know, when I, when I went to the University of Michigan, I did–and actually at my college, and I was it, you know, in a Catholic, women’s college. And–did I talk about how my professor was the one who told me, I could go on and get the PhD? So that, you know, I think that, you know, you, you’re, you can be fortunate for, you know, what people do. And I just feel that, you know, I’ve been very fortunate. And, I mean, there were there were times when I was department that I thought this is a stupid thing to be doing Or it’s, you know, it’s too hurtful, because, you know, you can’t necessarily do everything for people that they want done.

JS: Right. Sounds frustrating.

BR: Yeah, so that could be frustrating. But, and I you know, I, I just feel like I had a very rich life. And, you know, I wish I could get more writing done now. But, you know, I’m surrounded by books, and this and that, and, you know, and I get off on to things. And so, but, you know, I really feel very blessed that I’ve been able to do this, because I know a lot of people don’t. And I think, you know, it’s in the United States, because I mean, I got a grant from the federal government for three years to study indian, indian history, and Indian political science and

JS: That’s amazing.

BR: I had to take Michigan. And I mean, I’m glad I was in Michigan, and I had to have a field of, you know, pre 1500. And so I took the Renaissance. But now people, I think, get so focused on what their project is. And so, you know, I think if you’re having a liberal education, it’s good to know a little bit about something else. And that I came back through–when I went around the world. And when I was coming back from my dissertation research, I went to Florence for three days now. I was three–Yeah, I was in Rome for three and a half days. I was in Florence for three and a half days. And unfortunately, I had lower digestive tract problems. So I could have have–I had minestrone and bread. And I thought the whole time in India I was thinking, ‘ah, I can hardly wait because there was no Indian–I mean, there was no Italian food in India now now there’s pizza every place [JS laughs]. And there’s been pizza most places for a long time. So, the, the thing is that I just feel, you know, I mean that–I’m not saying that there weren’t times that I thought, ‘Why did I do this?’

JS: Yeah.

BR: But you know, it was more or less. And I like working with people. I think I am a people person to so like working with people. So any other question?

JS: I think that’s about it. For me. Any final thoughts? You want to do this interview?

BR: No, I just, I think that, you know, you should encourage people, you know, to do–to explore things. I think that’s what I would say that, you know, you should explore things. And have, I didn’t have much self confidence.

JS: Yeah.

BR: And I–because my parents were from another generation and everything. And I didn’t have it. So my faculty advisor said, you know, to me when I was in the undergraduate, ou know, you don’t have any–and I said, Well, I don’t know, I just don’t have, you know, because I would always think, Well, I’m not doing good enough for you to do better. And so it’s good for some time for people to say, yes, you are doing good. And yeah, you know, Rome wasn’t made in a day. So this isn’t going to do. And, you know, and I know, I have to write many drafts of a paper or a book, and you know, that it takes me a long time. I’m not somebody who can sit down and zip it off. But, you know, as I say, I’m, I’m happy that people are still reading my book on, you know, the Indian princes. And I’m still happy that, you know, occasionally someone will come up to me and, like, oh, some fella at one of the beer places, said, ‘You know, I had a course from you.’ And I don’t know, it was it was it was I think someone’s waiting up there or something. And he saw my name tag, you know, say is it ‘Oh, I hope the grade was okay.’ He said, ‘Well, sort of okay.’ But, you know, you, you know, you just, you know, it just hoped that, you know, other people can enjoy what you did, too.

JS: Yeah.

BR: So that’s why now I’m because I’m giving money to UC, and we’re in money to my undergraduate college, too, because I, you know, my parents had that we had five children. And they said, well, the girls will get married and somebody will take care of them. And so we’ll, we’ll send the boys, the two boys to college. And I said, ‘Okay, I want to get, you know, to college.’ So I worked for two years at the telephone company and the service representative. But I would–you’d come in, and we’d talk about getting your telephone. And then if you didn’t pay your bill, I called you and told you what was going to happen.

JS: Yeah.

BR: And so either way, it didn’t have always happy people. But anyway, so I worked for two years. And then I went to college, and I was taking night courses while I was working. And I went to Alverno College, and I was able to get through in three years. But my faculty advisor was the one who helped me apply. And, you know, so that’s why I worked a lot with my graduate students to, to, you know, so that they can be competitive, because you’ve been on the other side of judging, so you know, what they’re looking for.

JS: Right.

BR: So that that’s good. And, you know, so I, you know, I feel satisfied. I guess that’s the way it is. And I think that, you know, I did well, at Cincinnati, there, there are there are things that I don’t necessarily agree with but, I think, and I think students can get a very good education here. Now, I don’t say in every department, but I think that you know, if, you know, if you, you know, and I would tell people, if it’s not going well, and you think you’re not gonna like it, try something else.

JS: Yeah.

BR: And, you know, don’t do it, because I think people become bitter when they think they’re stuck in something.

JS: Right.

BR: And so you want to just say you have to try now I realize that, you know, that there are major groups of people who don’t have that ability to try something else too. And so, you know, our United States has a lot of issues. We don’t get patents, we have issues. And unfortunately, you know, some of them aren’t getting any better. So, you know, we just, you know, so I worry about that. I do worry about politics, but you know, I can’t do too much about it.

JS: Right.

BR: Except vote. So I’ll do that. Okay, well, I think that’s about it.

JS: Thank you so much.

BR: Yeah. Well thank you too for coming and asking the questions and everything.

JS: Of course